Transcript: Peter B. Collins Interviews Gordon Duff
Read It, Analyze, Search, Quote, Share It
As we often do, we listen to an interview or watch a video on the Internet and wish there were a transcript. Right?
Why?
For me, I would often rather read quickly than wait for them to say what I’m interested in. Otherwise, I sometimes want to reread, analyze, search, and quote some of what’s said.
In the case of this Peter B. Collins interview of Gordon Duff, I thought I ought do a transcript myself. For various reasons, this interview needs to be on the record, searchable, and quotable.
I could say many things right now about this interview, this performance by Gordon Duff, who is a popular writer on VeteransToday.com and an employee in capacities he can’t/won’t talk about. But that can wait. Perhaps you and I will do it together in comments below. Otherwise, I may write a reaction article.
For now, I want get out of your way. So, I have just two introductory suggestions:
- When you read about Duff’s background — an “unnamed government agency,” a merchant bank focused on oil and gas, an NGO with a Duff rank of ambassador, and his having “peddled entropy” destabilizing governments — you know he was and therefore is in intelligence. Therefore, everything he says or writes for public consumption must be scrutinized in that light. Not one single sentence is necessarily sincere or true. Nobody in the public eye is an “ex” intelligence agent.
- Consider what Duff doesn’t say. Despite his banking and intelligence background, he doesn’t say who owns anything. He doesn’t follow the money to the top. That’s on purpose. How do I know? Because he and I had a brief email exchange on this point.
That said, enjoy the mix of very interesting points and the occasional suspiciously outrageous assertions by Gordon Duff.
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Peter B. Collins interviews Gordon Duff
dated 24 August 2010 on http://peterbcollins.com
(transcribed and linked by JamesLaffrey, 30 August to 1 September 2010)
[Interview TOTAL TIME: 1:13:31]
(intro …)
PB: Gordon Duff, welcome to our program.
[TIME: 0:02:09]
GD: Well, thank you, Peter. It’s good to be on board.
PB, GD: [wine talk, not transcribed]
[TIME: 0:02:44]
PB: How long have you been writing? Because I only really became aware of your work in the last four or five months.
GD: Prob’ly since about ’93.
PB: 1993. Ok. And before the Internet thing, were you writing for a print publication.
GD: (chuckle) No, I was working for a nasty unnamed government agency writing the same kind of deceptive things I do today, apparently.
PB: (laugh) Well, to the extent you can, give us a rundown on your activities since you left the military that bear on the opinions and views that you express in your writing.
GD: Well, what one can say one does. One went to college for a long time and tried to avoid reality. uhh. One ended up taking — returning to government employ for some time in a uhhh unspecified capacity. uhh. Rented(?) a (not clear)-contracting firm for about 10 years. uhh. Anti-submarine warfare stuff. uhh. Satellite surveillance. uhh. Security. Investigations. uhh. Personal security stuff. Still do that. uh. I own a wine-importing company. umm.
PB: Oh, you do? I didn’t grab that part.
GD: Yeah. I’ve uh — it’s kind of — that’s like my day job, uh, in the wine business. That’s why I write about wine, and uh, teach about wine. I’m a chef. I was with a merchant bank for a number of years as the senior trade officer, uhh, working in commodities, oil and gas primarily, uhm, and worked for the Institute de la zie [spelling?] [is it ZEE? which could be Exclusive Economic Zones, thus maybe here, a corrupted institution. anybody know?], which is uhh, a uh, NGO, as diplomatic officer with the rank of ambassador. Uhh, and let’s see, what’s the language? We want to be exacting about such things, and it’s best to be. In Special Consultative Relationship with the United Nations Economic and Social Council, uhh, working areas of currency stabilization, oil policy, and Africa and the Middle East.
PB: Now, my listeners would feel that I didn’t perform my duties if I don’t ask you if you were an international hitman like John Perkins. (chuckle)
GD: Uhhh, yeah, kinda. Pretty much. Yes. (laugh). uhhh –
PB: Do you know Perkins? Do you know his books?
GD: Yeah. I’m familiar with it, and it’s uh. Jeff Gates did the same thing. He’s one of our editors at VT [VeteransToday]. He worked for the IMF [International Monetary Fund], and we both basically peddled entropy. uh, debt. was (not clear) make sure as many as the governments as possible were up to their necks in debt and were heading toward oligarchy with extremely poor people, instability, and a wealthy powerful fascist overclass. Without folks like us, none of that would have happened. Uh –
[NOTE: "uhh" will not be transcribed further, except in rare instances. By including "uhh" thus far, it helped to give a flavor of the speaking style: The speaker fills pauses for thought with that common noise. But the job of transcribing is tedious enough without including accurate utterances of "uh".]
PB: (chuckle). And I respect that you have secrecy and confidentiality agreements. Can you just give us a sense of, have you been briefed into black programs, and if so, what type or what range of secret activities are you briefed into?
GD: (laugh) It’s like one of those things, you know, on the Internet almost everybody is former CIA, you know, and no real CIA operational employee would ever admit to it. There are so many people working for intelligence agencies today, I can’t tell you how many of the writers and editors at VT are on the payroll of somebody, or I suspect they are, but it’s probably 50 percent. But I am briefed by people within the military structure of the United States and several other nations on a fairly regular basis. And to that extent, plus, we have so many readers — VT is, you know, 300,000 — nearly 400,000 subscribers. And over 20 million readers. And many of them are, well (chuckle), our biggest readership is probably in Israel, India, Pakistan. (PB laughs.) At times I begin to see this. But it’s not an unusual call that I get a phone call from somebody in the Mossad or people with intelligence agencies who want to talk about things. And what you’re forced to do is you’re forced to either be a journalist — whatever that is, and I don’t know how to be a journalist, necessarily. But I put an article out yesterday criticizing the programs of the U.S. special forces in Afghanistan because they’re killing too many civilians, and it’s because they’re being duped. Almost everybody that talks to an American there is a gangster, thief, or hanger-on of some kind. Any normal, trustworthy Afghani who talked to an American would be killed immediately. And if we’re getting all our information from crooks, and the information we’re getting are lists of people we’re supposed to be killing in the middle of the night — and that’s what we’re doing. That’s what war’s about, and we accept that. Then we’re being led around by the nose by gangsters, and gangsters aren’t having us kill the Taliban. They’re having us get rid of people who owe them money, their competitors in the drug business, political competitors, or honest decent people that they see as a threat to their criminal activities. And we’ve gone in the [not clear, sounds like "frank nitty"] business. It’s not the first time. We did the same thing in Central America, and we could talk about the Phoenix Program in Viet Nam, where we killed tens of thousands of people.
If you’re removing innocent — let’s talk about Afghanistan for a second, which I know you didn’t want to get into right away but let’s say we’ve got a government in Kabul that controls only three percent of the country. The rest of the country is either the wild west, and some of it is, and we have several staff writers who are living in Afghanistan, some ex-pats living in the U.S., who have very strong feelings about this, and you can go to VeteransToday.com and read this, but you’ve got a — the mayor of Kabul: Karzai incorporated, reputed to be the largest narcotics dealers in the world, way beyond the Colombian cartel. And there are partners who could be from anywhere: Israel, the U.S., China, India, Pakistan, Britain, Switzerland — and are — who deal 65 billion dollars a year of heroin. Now, the rest of the country — 97 percent — 20 percent of it, I’m guessing, has nobody in charge. There’s people getting shot up on the street. It’d be nice if America could bring peace. The rest of the country has what we call a shadow government. We’re naming it Taliban. Well, some of them may be Taliban — people who used to be our allies against the Russians. The rest of them are insurgents. Now, what’s an insurgent? Somebody that doesn’t like America being there. There’s kind of a rationale for that. You don’t have to be a horrible person not to want people from some other country running around your country telling you that you have to have a government from this moron Karzai in Kabul and his gangster friends.
PB: It would make me join the resistance.
[TIME: 0:11:08]
GD: Yeah. Well, this shadow government — what does a shadow government do? Well, a shadow government, well, to a large extent provides healthcare, provides education, and provides public security. Now, we have two kinds of shadow government going on in Afghanistan. The ones handled by America’s friends are killing civilians, stealing from people, blackmailing people, kidnapping, and doing assassinations. We have the Taliban or insurgent version, which is kind of doing some of the same things. But when you’re out getting rid of that Taliban infrastructure, for every Taliban leader we kill, 10 civilians, a couple of nurses, apparently a few aid workers recently –
PB: Yeah.
GD: because it wasn’t the Taliban that killed them. That’s a cover story. It was one of the warlords of the Northern Alliance responsible for killing the 10 aid workers in Afghanistan. But you kill mayors, you kill tribal leaders, you kill the people that eventually you depend on running that country when you pull out. And we’re being duped into doing that, and it’s because America’s got this addiction to James Bond movies.
The Army gets very little money compared to the Air Force. The Air Force has all the cool planes, has the bases that have the best restaurants on them. They have the best golf courses, the best hotels — which I stay at and I appreciate. To the guys in the Air Force: Thank you for taking good care of me, flying me around, and finding me nice places to stay. The Army, on the other hand, has the worst places in the world. The Army, in order to fight for funds against our space-age Air Force, has to make up this — well, we’ve invented an enemy, the Al Qaeda, which I’m pretty sure doesn’t exist. We invented — and this we’ll be talking about later — Osama Bin Laden, the man of all evils, who’s been dead for nine years. And before he was dead, never ran a terrorist organization. Never. He did fight for the United States for several years, got very ill, and until 2001 talked to newspeople for a while, and since then I think they’ve — I don’t know how many different clones the CIA and Mossad have created to try to convince us he’s still alive.
PB: Well, some of the videos don’t even match. I mean, if you –
GD: Not since, uh — it’s really hard to have a good video of somebody who’s been dead since the evening of December 14th, 2001.
PB: (laugh) Oh, Gordon. You just don’t understand special effects, and when Hollywood meets the Pentagon, all kinds of things are possible. But, but, let me re-establish some control here. (chuckle). I love listening to you. You have a lot of interesting things to say. I want to come back to what you know. And let me just establish that I have zero clearances, all right?
GD: You’re gonna get what I can tell you.
PB: I understand. I’ve never been briefed into anything. So, my question is, how do you sort through in your mind the things that you know that you’re not allowed to talk about, the things that you know that you have learned from sources that you don’t want to reveal, and the things that you pick up like I do from public sources, corporate media, and you know, generalized information that’s available to all. How do you sift through all that and come up –
GD: I don’t read any newspapers or watch television — at all. I don’t do it at all. …
One would be better off to never turn on the television, never look through a newspaper at all for anything other than sports scores. …
PB: Ok. But my point is that there’s a lot of –
GD: I understand what you’re –. It’s very simple. And this requires a bit of hubris on my part. I have to look at something and — am I gonna get any Americans killed by saying this? And if I am, I don’t do it. And you weigh it out. And as long as I keep doing that — and I do that — I will all of the information I can stand, and more, and be allowed to glean through it because I’ve been doing this longer than the guys at the Pentagon have. And I know I’m better at it, and they do, too. What I get — the scary thing, of course, is that so many people call us to leak things. Leaks don’t come from Assange [the face of Wikileaks]. They come from the highest sources all the time. Nobody wants to come out — let’s take two very sensible decent guys in our government: Leon Panetta runs the CIA, and Bob Gates runs the Pentagon. These are intelligent competent people who absolutely know there’s no Al Qaeda.
[TIME: 0:17:04]
PB: And I — let me just add that I know Leon Panetta from years ago when he was a member of Congress, chaired the budget committee, and before — I haven’t — I’ve only talked to him once since he was the chief of staff at the Clinton White House and of course was retired for a while and was brought back to head the CIA. And I was appalled at his confirmation hearing when Kit Bond was challenging some of the comments that Panetta made and forcing him to basically walk back his own words. And the way he performed was so docile, I really struggled to understand why he would want this job and what he thinks his role is.
GD: Well, there was a time when I feared having that job. And no rational human being would want either of those jobs. I mean, you can obviously work in the private sector doing something and make very good money, much more money than thinking you’re in control of the Central Intelligence Agency. How do you run an agency when 40 percent of its responsibilities your predecessor had moved off to civilian contractors? And it’s one thing, civilian contractors and — about half of my friends work for, you know, Blackwater and otherwise. They had to have jobs. …
I am not at war against Blackwater, or Dynecorp, or TripleCanopy, or L3, or any of them. You know, the people running the companies are people I know and talk to and — the U.S. contractors that are out there in Afghanistan are as much our concern — they’re all ex soldiers, they’re all veterans, and we’re as concerned about them as anyone else. But the idea that we’re getting our intelligence from Blackwater — Xe — they’re our largest contractor at the CIA, and many good people work there — but the company is controlled by the Republican Party and the state of Israel. And every bit of intelligence that goes to the CIA that’s collected though this company and several others is written in Tel Aviv. And it is not meant to bring about peace in Afghanistan. It’s meant to destabilize the United States, destabilize Pakistan, and bury the United States in a war forever.
We do billions of dollars of business buying things from Israel. I worked at a defense contractor, I’m negotiating with four or five firms right now. One of the firms is being told they can’t deal with the Pentagon until they take on an Israeli partner. Another firm that developed a technology in combination with a New-York-based university, the university saw to it on its own to send these proprietary technologies to a competing company in Israel. There isn’t a defense company in the U.S. that isn’t being forced to take on an Israeli partner, take on an Israeli partnership of some kind, or to deal with Israel. And much to the damage of America’s defense capabilities. Simply, it’s — and I can’t call it any more than economic crime. But it’s the neutering of America’s defense capabilities. Any technology in the U.S. is immediately peddled to Israel, and then a week later shows up in China.
That’s my pregnant silence at the end of that.
[TIME: 0:20:53]
PB: And I didn’t interrupt it. (chuckle) Now, let’s take a little side trip here into the U.S. – Israel relationship. And I’m one of those people who’s very uncomfortable with the kind of political influence and control that Israel exercises over both Democrats and Republicans. And I’m also one of those people who supports the aspirations of the Palestinians, despite the problems with Fatah and Hamas, neither a perfect vehicle for those aspirations. My support is for the people and not these political players.
GD: Well, Hamas is a moronic operation.
PB: Well, I don’t have a lot of regard for either Hamas or Fatah. But my point is that much of that gets lost in the dumbing down of the whole picture where “Hamas is a terrorist group like Hezbollah” and therefore anybody who makes any effort to bridge between Palestine and Israel is a “supporter of Hamas, a supporter of terrorism, is anti-semitic because they don’t support, you know, the appropriate notions of Israeli power” –
GD: You can change the labels either way. You can declare Israel as a terrorist organization and Hamas as freedom-fighters and Hezbollah as freedom-fighters. You can go either way with this. But this constant “We are poor victims” — 30 thousand rockets came on Tel Aviv. They killed a farmer from Thailand on the day that a U.N. inspection officer was there. We know the guy got hit in the back of the head with a lead pipe by a Mossad officer, but that’s neither here nor there. Uh, whenever a bus blows up in Tel Aviv, we look at the list of the people there. Frankly, most of them never exist or they were people who (chuckle) were unhandy.
Most terrorism — most terrorism — is false-flag terrorism. Now, there are such things as suicide bombers, and there are such things as rockets. But frankly, Israel began as a terrorist nation in 1946. Israel went to war against Britain. Israel sent death squads to both the United States and Britain to kill public officials that didn’t support Israel. The first people that were liquidated when the Jews returned to Palestine — and there’s a question whether they’d come from there in the first place that we don’t have time to get into. The first people that were eliminated were the Christians. First, the Christian orthodox. It went on — it went on. Then, the Muslims. And it was simply — it was a murderous liquidation. There was no attack on Israelis.
There’s this utter lie about the history of Islam and the Jews. In 1458, Constantinople fell — I hope to get my dates right on this — to the Muslims. The Ottoman Empire, a few years later, noticing persecution in Europe, which did exist, we freely admit, invited the Jews of Europe to come and live in the Ottoman Empire and serve as the governing officials of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire ran the entire Islamic world until 1923. So, from 1464 or so till 1923, the Jews ran the Ottoman Empire.
PB: Hm.
GD: If you want to see how, all you have to do is go to Pakistan. It’s really simple. Walk into a bank holding your platinum Visa card and try to get a 50-dollar cash advance. You’ll be there two days from now. You don’t want to do a lot of business in a Muslim country. They just aren’t very good at it. And the Jews — they ran everything. Without the Jews, there wouldn’t have been Islam. (chuckle) They couldn’t have handled it. Or the math skills, they say they invented it. I don’t believe a word of it. (PB chuckles). Half the people on our staff are Muslims. The rest of them are Jews, actually. But uh, the whole, this whole concept, the whole mythology of the persecution that went on for hundreds of years is a total and absolute falsehood.
PB: All right. Now, let’s bring that back to the present day and the U.S. acquiescence to Israeli foreign policy, because particularly as it applies to our approach to Iran, the U.S. seems hellbent on delivering for the interests of the Israeli government and the extreme zionists in the government and the military.
[TIME: 0:26:09]
GD: Well, the extreme zionists are in the American government, as far as I can tell. For instance, the heads of all Federal Reserve banks are Israeli citizens, dual citizens. All top Federal Reserve officials. All top foreign policy — 80 percent of top foreign policy officials in the United States have Israeli passports in their dresser drawer next to the bag of marijuana. There is no American foreign policy. Now, people don’t want to accept this — if you’ve heard something else for years and years. There is no Congress. There is no government. There is no president. If you’re wondering why we got rid of one moron and we have another person who sounded very nice and they’ve turned out to be a total moron also, it’s because, well, any sign of independence on the part of an American president, they’re going to be destroyed.
One of the odd things — you and I talked about this the other day — I’ve had to reassess — I continually have to look at what I believe. And this is a Jeff Gates thing. He’s one of our editors. Jeff is a pretty hard on, uh, as an attorney, what’s stacked and what isn’t. How much of what I have believed all of my life is a belief and not a fact? Well, if it came out of television, if it came off a tv show, if it talks about Arab terrorists, poor Israelis, whatever, a country full of nuclear weapons, ICBMs, a country that kills people all over the world being a victim, it’s mythology. Everything every American hears everyday he hears from a news network, he reads in a newspaper, that is controlled by a citizen of Israel. That — 90 percent of so of the information we receive is orchestrated by a specific group of people with an agenda — and it seems like — it’s not a religious thing or a racial thing or whatever — it’s a group of people that want to destroy the United States of America. It’s not Pakistan they’re after. It’s us. We’re the ones that are missing trillions of dollars. Another dresser drawer: If you look at where your money has gone, why you don’t have a 401k, why your house is worthless, why you don’t have a job, why your kids are living in your home, the people who got you there — all of ‘em — well, go to their house, go to the dresser drawer, next to the bag of marijuana is an Israeli passport, or a little stack of ‘em. There is no United States. This Noam Chomsky idea where the United States has this relationship with Israel where we use them as our junkyard dog. Hardly. We’re their surrogate. You’re raising children right now who will die in wars fighting to perpetuate an Israeli war against — there’s a crusade. It’s an Israeli war against Christendom. Ha, and I’m not even a Christian. But it’s — Christendom has been deigned by the zionists to be destroyed. And if there’s any clear representation that that’s been done, take a look at the heretical belief of Christian zionism — the apocalypse rapture death cult — that if Jesus, if he lived or didn’t, and I believe he did, were he to come upon any of the adherents of that belief, he’d hit ‘em in the back of the head with a chair.
Anyway, time for another silence from me and let you gain control of this train wreck.
[TIME: 0:30:20]
PB: (laugh) Well, Gordon, it’s interesting because, you know, I’m open to what you’re saying. The problem I have is reconciling what you described there — and again, I’m focusing on Israel and the United States — that, you know, it’s in Israel’s interest, in my view, to be able to buy our weapons, to receive the three billion dollars in –
GD: Three? Let me jump in — this is my manic thing here.
PB: Go ahead.
GD: You know, we send billions of dollars of weapons to Israel each year for them to store for us in the Middle East. Now, they don’t have any deep-water ports, so if we drop let’s say a billion dollars worth of cluster bombs — and we do — for storage there, we do it under these circumstances: Now, our last shipment to them was 1.8 billion dollars worth of ordnance, was shipped to Israel for safe-keeping under the consideration that they could sell it if they needed to. They sold it to North Korea.
PB: And how recently was this?
GD: This year.
PB: Hm. (silence) Well, that’s stunning. (chuckle) Now, why would Israel operate in a way [GD is also speaking at the same time ...] But why is it –
GD: It’s not just stunning. It’s true. It’s not just one. We ship them up to 5 billion dollars worth of American weapons to sell on the open market. Israel has traditionally been the source — any rogue nation when they’ve wanted a weapon of any kind — if anybody has sold nuclear weapons in this world, it’s been Israel. Not Pakistan. You know, the only nuclear weapon that went off in North Korea — and that would be May 25th, 2009. An 18.2 kiloton uranium-235 weapon was exploded by that nation. And the United States monitored that — some of that leaked information you like. Ok? We sourced that weapon. We found a match to it in an earlier test. September 22nd, 1979. An identical weapon, with the same impurity signature on the uranium, and the same 80-millisecond double flash, was detected in the middle of the Indian Ocean on Saint Edward’s Island, exploded by a South African corporation owned by Israelis called ArmsCorp. Ten nuclear weapons were built by Israel in South Africa between 1978 and 1985. In 1990, a deal was cut by the United Nations through Hans Blix and through the government of Britain to render South Africa’s nuclear arsenal. Nine weapons were left. Ten were built, and nine were left. Six were shipped to the United States. Three were boxed up and shipped to the country of Oman. They were purchased by the British government to be kept in storage during the first Gulf war in case Saddam Hussein was to use a weapon of mass destruction.
PB: Mm hm.
GD: Now, if that sounds stupid, well — (chuckle). Not only are we sitting on the shipping documents, the crane designs, I could put the guy on the phone that designed the cradles for the bombs, loaded ‘em in the container, took them to the ship in Durham — in the blue, 20-foot ISO containers. I know who the shipping agents were: One was Kashoggi. The other one’s name I can’t mention, but a Rhodesian living in southwest Britain.
PB: Mm hm. Now, Gordon, let me — what I’m driving at, though, is motivation. Ok? I can’t prove or disprove what you’re telling me. I find it highly credible, and I don’t think you have any reason to make this stuff up or bullshit me. But –
GD: Oh, it’s not just that –
PB: Gordon –
GD: There’s just so much data out there –
PB: But Gordon, the — the –
GD: like 9/11
PB: The issue for me is trying to understand why Israel would want to feed a nuclear weapon to North Korea, defined by Bush as part of the “axis of evil.” Why would Israel want to destabilize the U.S. — already reeling in Afghanistan. Why would Israel want us to lose there? These are the things that I’m trying to understand.
[Time: 0:35:15]
GD: No, they don’t want us to lose. They want us to fight forever — because they’re building UAVs for us, they’re building the MRAPs for us, and they’re laundering 65 billion dollars a year of heroin money out of Afghanistan. And I’ll tell you, as soon as the Taliban wins, again, the Israelis are going to lose their 5 billion dollar a year fee they’re making in the money-laundering business.
And as far as North Korea, well, they love keeping North Korea around because North Korea can’t buy weapons anywhere but through Israel. How does North Korea get a German diesel submarine? You think they go to Hamburg and say, you know, “Can you build us one?” The Germans are going to say, “You’re North Koreans. The Americans aren’t going to like it. But we’ll sell it to the Israelis, and they can deliver it to you.” And that’s how North Korea has their submarine. That’s how they have everything. They get them from the Israelis. The Israelis were the same people that supplied Libya. When Libya was developing nuclear weapons, when Libya was developing chemical weapons, they were getting all of their supplies from two places, basically: from South Africa, and from Israel. And if you wanted to find documentation on this, you could simply go online to the South African Truth Commission and the documents on the shipments of precursors for chemical and biological weapons going from Israel to South Africa, to Iran, to North Korea, to East Germany, to Russia, to Czechoslovakia. That was your axis of evil. The rogue nations — those were the rogue nations.
You know, during the entire Cold War — two things we’ve forgotten here about the Cold War. Who the Soviet Block really was: the communist countries that we admit and two that we don’t: India and Israel. India was always in the Russian Block. And Israel was receiving American subsidies and always in the Soviet Block also.
Another pregnant silence.
PB: We’re talking with Gordon Duff here on the Peter B. Collins Show, and it’s quite a remarkable exposition that he’s offering us. I wanted to turn next to Wikileaks because you got my attention with a piece that was pretty widely distributed in my email circles about Wikileaks. And you have flatly said that this is a disinformation campaign, as you earlier referred to Tel Aviv as the source of much of the intelligence. And so, give us a little detail here on your view of Wikileaks, the extent to which Julian Assange is aware of your suspicions, and also you need to raise what you and I talked about in our off-air conversation yesterday, which is that people like me have accepted news accounts of what is in the Wikileaks documents, but I don’t know that they’re actually available to me, and frankly I haven’t had the time or inclination to try to find them and read these individual documents, some 80- or 90,000 in total.
[Time: 0:38:40]
GD: The number I have is 60-, (not clear) actually open the file here. I thought it was like 69,821 — I think. I’ll leave it at that. The index alone is an Excel file that’s 66 and a half megs. That the index. When I was hit by the story initially, I looked for somebody that would actually read them. As far as I know, no news service in the world has a clue what’s in any of it. They’re just making (not clear) their stories. All the stories you’re hearing. Guys out there, all the stories are being made up. Well, I only knew one group in the world that I could con into reading (chuckling) 90,000 pages of documents. So, I called our editor in Islamabad, Major Raja Mujtaba and had him forward my request to Brigadier General Asif Haroon Raja who forwarded it to the head of Pakistan’s ISI, and the ISI assigned a group of analysts who, going through the 69,000 pages of documents — I would almost rather have Brigadier Raja on the phone with us here — and that can be arranged and probably should. The report we have on this from Pakistan is of the, we’ll call it nearly 70,000 pages of documents, 150 of the reports mentioned Pakistan. And 30 — out of nearly 70,000 — 30 pages had a mention of individuals from Pakistan that might have been dealing with the Taliban. Now, I’ve got on staff here I’ve got the primary advisor to Petraeus and the U.S. Congress is Khalil Nouri, one of our editors. I certainly know lots of people in Afghanistan. I mean, I talk to Prince Ali [Prince Abdul Ali Seraj, link, page 27] there on a regular basis. When I was last in Pakistan, I had a friend — a group of friends — from Afghanistan come over to visit — some of them, I think, to keep bad things from happening to me. But uh, it’s not unusual to sit around the house here and I’ll get a call from Afghanistan, and it’ll be someone who will be speaking for a group that we list as insurgents. That’s not unusual at all. Now, of the editors of our own publication, former ISI chief General Hamid Gul is an editor of Veterans Today, as is Jeff Gates and Doctor Alan Sabrosky, the person who has accused Israel of responsibility for 9/11. But we also have groups from Afghanistan, including our editor on Afghani affairs is Khal Nouri. I’ll tell you, having to negotiate between Khal and Hamid is ver– is, is, not good at all. There is no relationship between anybody in Pakistan and anybody in Afghanistan. I like Gul. And Khal and I have been friends for some time. I talk to both of them. They don’t talk to each other. There is a tremendous amount of enmity. The last person in the world somebody in the Taliban would talk to is a representative of Pakistan’s ISI. They despise Pakistan.
PB: Now, let me stop you there because that contradicts the general notion coming out of non-official circles that the ISI created the Taliban in the 1990s as a way of pacifying Afghanistan so that Pakistan could concentrate on its tensions with India.
GD: And some of that actually did happen, but the problem is that the relationship soured. Pakistan has gone through so many changes. Pakistan to some extent is an interesting attempt at democracy. They — a corrupt country. The president of Pakistan is under deep suspicions of severe corruption. If anything, the most liberal elements, the most democratic elements in Pakistan — General Kayani [or Kiyani] head of the army, if he ran for president of the United States, we’d elect him. He’s a tough guy. He’s a moderate. He’s fair. He’s not ambitious. He’s not crazy. He’s a chain-smoker. But he’s a sensible guy. The head of the ISI is m–. The current head of the ISI is a very moderate individual, very well educated. The Pakistani military is hardly extremist. Not only are they not extremist, they’re glued right to the hip of the United States military. The Pakistani army considers itself a part of the American military. They — well, you know, let’s take Colonel Imam the guy in particular that was accused of training the Taliban. He’s been around for about 20 years. He’s a brigadier general. Had dinner with him — I don’t know — about four or five months ago with Jeff Gates and General Beg former chief of the Pakistani army. And uh, I’ve got a guy here, he’s probably 6-5, Gates is 6-6, I’m just a little over 6 feet — the shrimp in the room — and um, so I’ve got this guy with a Taliban outfit and a, you know, a beard, and he starts talking, and he’s not only got an American accent, he’s got a Southern accent. Oh, you’re the guy running the Taliban. That’s cool. And that tattoo (chuckle), that tattoo says “United States Special Forces” on his arm, and the patch on the shoulder of his Taliban jacket says “Ranger.” Because: He was trained by the United States. He went through all of his training — Ranger and Special Forces training — in the United States. And what do these guys talk about? They talk about all of their friends in the American military. You go around to their houses. I’ve been in the home of every senior military official in Pakistan having tea at one time or another. It’s a circuit you have to do. And on the walls, you’ve got pictures of Ronald Reagan next to these guys. You’ve got Norman Schwarzkopf. You’ve got gifts from Colin Powell all over the home. These guys are not just friends of American, they’re horribly pro-American. No American has ever heard any of this.
There’s a serious issue with Pakistan. There was a young lady with a doctorate from MIT, Doctor Aafia [Aafia Siddiqui: 1, 2], a microbiologist. Her husband was an anesthesiologist working in Boston. She was, uh — this was in 2003. She had gone to visit her family in Pakistan. Now, this is at the same time the Bush administration had put out a casting call to gangsters in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and around the world: Find us terrorist suspects; I don’t care if they’re kids, women, taxi drivers, some idiot got off a plane, we don’t care what their name is, we want to lock ‘em up because we’ve got to build up numbers because we want to tell Congress we’ve got arrests [not clear on the word "arrests"]. Well, in 2003, this woman was dragged off the street with two of her children. In the process of kidnapping her, they killed one of her kids. She’s an American citizen. She was sent to Bagram Air Force Base where she was kept — I have been reliably informed — in solitary confinement for five years, repeatedly raped and tortured. And this is someone who went from, you know, a Boston housewife, MIT doctorate, wife of a prominent local physician in Boston. After five years, she was in a wheelchair from being continually assaulted.
The best part, in 2008, during an interrogation session, and this is one of the oddest things, probably, I’ve ever heard. During an interrogation session, she was accused of leaping out of her wheelchair — this is somebody at 87 pounds. There were eight Americans in the room: two FBI agents, two Navy Seals, four were Special Forces. She was accused of wrestling all eight of them to the ground, taking a rifle from one of them, and trying to kill them. But she was shot in the abdomen. That was the only way the eight Americans — all over 200 pounds (chuckle) by the way — uh, I would put our entire military on a diet. But she was shot in the stomach. It was the only way they could hold her down. This is the best part. It reminds me of the O.J. trial. She was shot not by one of them but by her translator.
PB: Hm.
GD: Now, if it doesn’t fit, you must acquit. Why would an American citizen, from a country where — everybody in Pakistan speaks English, uh, certainly as well as you or I, which isn’t saying a lot. This woman has a doctorate from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, a resident of Boston, why in the name of god would someone who spoke English since out of the cradle need a translator.
PB and GD: (both talking several words on top of each other)
GD: the United States put on trial for assaulting people after being illegally arrested, raped, tortured, and she was convicted in what — calling it a kangaroo court is generous — she was convicted of assaulting all of these special-ops interrogators. … How much intelligence do you get out of somebody who’s been locked in a room for five years?
PB: Right. Well — (GD speaks) and Gordon –
GD: Do you ask her what the roaches are doing?
PB: It sounds like the scene from Guantanamo that Scott Horton exposed in Harper’s Magazine from 2006 where three of the prisoners were transferred out to a black site off the main campus and came back dead, and the cover story that was floated was that they had hung themselves and choked on t-shirts or something like that they had stuffed down their throats, and then this was decried as an act of asymmetrical warfare on the part of these prisoners.
[Time: 0:50:22]
GD: Well, uh, here’s a classic here. I was contacted to help intercede for Doctor Aafia by Admiral Iftikhar Sirohey, former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff of the military of Pakistan. Now, who he asked me to contact for him was one of his closest friends who he hadn’t been in contact with recently. He asked me to dig up a guy named Colin Powell. And I got ahold of Powell’s personal handler and had the admiral’s letter — one of his closest friends and of course his counterpart in Pakistan, as both were chairmen of the joint chiefs of staff of the relative nations. Now, Powell has never responded to that letter. But I — remember, this is the same Colin Powell that sat in front of the United Nations and read off the litany of falsified stories about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. So, once he’d sold his credibility, apparently he sold his soul as well. And we all loved Colin Powell. We all would have voted for him for president. And what would we have gotten? Another spineless, useless, in this case ex-military hack.
You know, I should have — I bought in on Powell at one time. You know, I had overlooked the fact that he’d been part of the My Lai cover-up. I had overlooked the fact that he had kissed tail on his way up. I’d overlooked the fact that he was wearing a Purple Heart earned from a salad-fork injury inside a compound in Viet Nam. I know what he did and what his service record claims, but that’s not unusual. Enhancement is a way of life, and you expect it. If he didn’t do it, everybody else did, and no one can change the rules.
Everyone in the military is a useless phony — let’s get that straight. If they were at all bright, (chuckle) then none of this would have happened. You know, uh, what this — we’re in two wars, we lost the one in Iraq and we’re leaving with our tail between our legs. We can call it something else, we might. We’ve hopelessly lost in Afghanistan. We had no reason to be involved in either war. The military is worn to a frazzle. We’ve got 400,000 veterans who have claims in for Post Traumatic Stress — 400,000 — at a cost over seven years of over 7 trillion dollars taking care of them. We’ll never be able to do it. And our military is in a shambles. And anyone who thinks that our military has survived when we have people — 25 percent of the people in our military today are on anti-psychotic medications. We treated slaves better than we treat our military. The Roman army treated its military better than we do. This is one of the issues — this is what Veterans Today is about. Our veterans and our military. And our foreign policy serving as a surrogate for Israel has destroyed the defense capabilities of the United States.
And why would some country build a phony nuclear power out of North Korea? Well, North Korea can’t make nuclear weapons. They exploded two. One, they got ahold of — they bought — a plutonium core, which they put on top of a shipload of ammonium nitrate. And what was a core sufficient for a hydrogen weapon of 200 kilotons, they got a .8 (point eight) kiloton explosion from. We dropped bigger things than that in Viet Nam. Their second weapon they simply bought from the Israelis. What is North Korea, the huge threat? It’s a broken down, half-starved, donkey dictatorship. Guatemala could invade them. And turning them into an enemy? They’re a joke. South Korea could finish them off in an afternoon. And of course, this is what we build our enemies out of. The same thing — the same with Iran. We had Ahmadinejad [Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, president of Iran, link 1, 2] there next to his new ambassador-of-death superweapon. I’m sorry. Hasn’t anybody ever watched the History Channel and seen what a German V-1 from 1942 looks like? That’s what he’s standing next to? And that’s his new super unmanned bomber? He could have bought out of a junkpile in East Germany somewhere. It’s one of the funniest things I’ve ever seen. If you haven’t seen the picture, go look at the picture.
PB: Gordon, let me stop you on that line there, and I want to wrap up by referring people to Veterans Today and a recent post that you put up about 9/11 called “For Our Friends Who Still Don’t Get It.” I am a truther. I don’t believe that we know the truth about what happened on 9/11, and I believe that what we’ve been told is manufactured mythology. And you and I compared notes yesterday. I told you how I went and observed the work of the 9/11 Commission and that only served to further distance me from the mythology and see the cover-up operation in full effect at that point. Your piece is based on five real-time videos that were taken on September 11th. These are often screenshots that came from the live coverage — Dan Rather’s commentary, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. And in a very simple way, they make clear that the official story about 9/11 could not be true.
[Time: 0:56:46]
GD: Well, the classic is Jamie McIntyre, who’s really a wonderful correspondent, he’s at the Pentagon immediately after the crash. The first words out of his mouth: I don’t see a sign a plane ever hit here.
PB: Well, let’s — it’s only a minute long, so I’d like to play the clip so that our listeners can hear this. From September 11th, Jamie McIntyre, the ABC News [CNN, according to GD and PB below] correspondent at the Pentagon, filed this report:
“You know, it might have appeared that way. But from my close-up inspection, there’s no evidence of a plane having crashed anywhere near the Pentagon. The only sight is the actual side of the building that’s crashed in. And as I said, the only pieces left that you can see are small enough that you could pick up in your hand. There are no large tail sections, wing sections, fuselage, nothing like that anywhere around which would indicate that the entire plane crashed into the side of the Pentagon.”
PB: And this is one of the issues that I’ve always had trouble with. Building 7 is the other real obvious problem in the official story. But you posted a still photograph that is quite compelling because you show a firefighter in the foreground and the hole in the Pentagon in the background. And you describe that hole as even smaller than I thought it was. I thought it was about 16 feet across. But tell us where that photo came from and what the actual size of the hole appears to be.
GD: I’d gotten a — the photo came to me from the Canadian military. They were holding it. And the photo had been released — this was prior to the building being torn open by construction equipment. Where the plane hit, you would see — and this is at VeteransToday.com. You’ll be able to find it there. You’ll see — and I just put a thumbnail of it up — a firefighter standing in front of a pile of rubble, a pile of rubble, it’s about 3 feet tall. The firefighter is standing on the lawn in front of it. The width of the hole — entirely — it’s a round hole, is about, at its greatest, 7 feet in diameter, and if you take a careful look, you’ll notice that with the extended pieces of rubble and structural steel coming out, the entire hole in the Pentagon is about 4 feet across, and if you were to go into it, you’d have to crouch. If this were a video game, you’d be hitting the “c” key and walking in on w’s, for those of you who play First-Person Shooters.
PB and GD: (laugh)
GD: Now, an interesting point here, we’ve got, uh, this is CNN, on the site. Not anybody else. And every American had access to this that day — and the other videos there, off the BBC, CBS News. This isn’t Internet conspiracy theory. This is mainstream media. My last one is Fox.
PB: Yeah. And you correctly stated that McIntyre worked for CNN. He had been with ABC before, but on 9/11 he was live on CNN. So, I misspoke there. Go ahead.
[TIME: 1:00:05]
GD: And uh, the curious point is — I happen to live next door to a retired Navy officer, Captain Bill Campbell, who did, uh — after retiring as flight officer on one of our carriers, went to law school, and worked investigating airline crashes. That was his job. And he was my neighbor, and I helped him do that for a while. So, I’ve seen hundreds of airline crash photos. If one were to go online and look up the photograph from last year of the Russian airliner that — or the Polish airliner — that went down in Russia, killing the president of Poland –
PB: Right.
GD: you have an almost identical plane to a 757. Well, very simply put, I mean, we could talk about all of the things that weren’t there, which would be, you know, two acres of seats, thousands of pounds of dead people, hundreds of pieces of luggage, uh, airplane seats. Sit in a plane. Look at all the stuff. Well, it goes all over the place. It doesn’t disappear. In an airline crash, you’re picking up seat cushions a mile away. And this plane supposedly hit the side of the Pentagon at 400 knots. And of course the articles before that which caused more of a stir is we had an aeronautical engineer with experience from Boeing, and heaven forbid, Khal Nouri is one of the designers of the 757 and which currently worked (works?) at Boeing, but I will not involve Khal in this.
But a 757 cannot be flown at low level at 400 knots. They say, Well, planes come in low all the time. Yeah, they’re landing, they come in at 140 knots. At 400 knots — and I had the physics explained to me, and frankly it went over my head, but I’m taking somebody’s word for it — the plane would fly apart. They said only a military jet or a missile can fly that low. Well, what’s the lowest height a 757 can fly? And that would be the bottom part of the engine (not clear) could be 62 feet off the ground at 400 knots, placing the wings 15 feet higher than that — at 77 feet. Or, that’s how tall the Pentagon is — 77 feet. Meaning, if the plane was flown by the world’s best pilot, a 757, and hit the Pentagon, the lowest it could be is at the absolute top of the building. It couldn’t possibly be flown lower than that. And of course, anybody that follows 9/11 — and few people do anymore, they’re sick of it — would know this: That whatever came in knocked down light posts a mile away.
PB: Yeah.
GD: At 400 knots, uh — and it’s not the only forensic impossibility. You know, Building 7 is another issue. And we don’t need to go into that today, but one could very simply state that there is no forensic evidence supporting the cover story for 9/11. Not that there’s a little bit. There’s none. All of the forensic evidence, all of it, says that what we say happened could never have happened.
PB: Yeah. Well, I fully agree. And you have the powerful video from the BBC, the reporter who does a stand-up with Building 7 clearly depicted over her shoulder as she declares that it has come down already. And that’s just one of those novel (laughs) bits of evidence that doesn’t square with the story that we’ve been told (GD is speaking, too) that directly contradicts it.
GD: If you like going to Vegas, and you know, somebody pulls a fifth ace out of their pocket, and someone else predicts it five minutes before. You know, it’s a Yuri Geller thing. There’s no question, there’s no question at all that some news services were carrying scripts and had briefings on 9/11 before the attack. The BBC clearly proves to any reasonable court of law — you can’t possibly take another view on this. The BBC was holding a script to announce that Building 7 had fallen, and they announced it on-air in London, and then they went to their representative in New York who was standing next to a lightly damaged building, still standing its full 47 stories tall, and telling the audience (chuckle) right in front of the building that it had just fallen down. That one thing alone — you don’t have to talk about anything else — people with box cutters, or dancing Israelis, or secret Mossad agents, or Karl Rove did it with a bulldozer — you don’t have to go into any theory at all. That one thing alone could get Jesus convicted of murder.
You know, tv isn’t real, obviously, but since it’s our only common reference in our society, uh — what is fact? When something like a — you don’t need, you don’t need to have every thing come together. If one single issue on 9/11 fell apart, one issue, uh, that would mean there was a lie, and people should want to find out why that lie was there. Well, in the years since 9/11, everything has come apart.
And then the one that we have not gotten into that you wanted to: For nine years, Americans have heard tapes and seen videos of short fat Osama Bin Ladens, uh –
PB: Mm hm.
GD: tapes that certainly don’t match audio where he says one thing one day and one thing another day. And I assure you every intelligence official in the world, every senior officer in the United States military, knows Osama Bin Laden has been dead since 2001. They all know, as does the FBI, that he was never involved in 9/11, that there is no such thing as Al Qaeda — there has never been any such thing as Al Qaeda. It never existed. And it’s all a game to fool the people here. A transparent game. None of it is real. There’s no worldwide terrorist organization. There are no cells hiding around Dearborn, Michigan, or San Diego. None of it exists. It’s all like the, uh, the Christmas bomber, you know. Israelis put him on a plane, fly him to Detroit, uh, fly him to Detroit, and his pants catch on fire. Well, it’s all the same kind of stuff. It’s all the same — Times Square stuff. It’s all invented. It’s all theatre. It’s all myth.
And that nobody asks — nobody can say anything. The idea of debunking. All you had to do with 9/11 was take the sensible questions — this is like watching the movie, the uh, Men In Black.
PB: Mm hm.
GD: If they want to find the news, they go out and pick up the Weekly World Daily or the National Enquirer. We have thousands and thousands of bizarre claims about 9/11 and what happened. Utterly bizarre things: magic balls from space, alien spaceships, nuclear weapons. Who brought all of these things up? What we do have is enough evidence to know that what we say happened didn’t happen. But instead, the same people who made up the one story made up the hundred, two hundred, or thousand other stories. And all they feel they have to do is debunk one of the lies they made up and it covers the fact that there is no proof at all that 19 Arabs with box cutters were ever on a plane — nobody’s ever seen any of ‘em. Six of them are still alive asking to be interviewed.
Anyway. I’m gonna stop.
[TIME: 1:08:48]
PB: Well, you and I are most in alignment here about the mythology of 9/11. If, if, if we’re correct, and I believe we are, then what are the benefits? Is it simply the war machinery that has been cranked up, the doubling of the Pentagon budget, the benefits to the for-profit companies that make and sell all those products? Is it, simply put, war profiteering at an advanced scale?
GD: Well, if we, uh, woke up one morning in a bit of a democracy that a million Americans had died defending, and almost immediately after 9/11 we lived in a police state where you could be arrested for anything, permanently detained. The basis of all rights in any constitutional democracy is the writ of habeas corpus, which establishes the right of any human being to any sort of due process. When we suspended habeas corpus in the United States — you know, the Tea Party people worry about our Constitution, well, we still haven’t entirely gotten habeas corpus back. It may sound like mumbo jumbo –
PB: Nope.
GD: but it’s the basis of all of our laws. We have no Constitution, we have no rights — any American can be taken off the street, indefinitely held, I don’t care what color you are, where you’re from, you don’t have the right to an attorney, you don’t have any rights. And that happened. And frankly, if you
really check the law, people actually had more rights in Nazi Germany than Americans do today. If people worried about having their guns seized, just realize the Bush administration put the mechanisms together through Homeland Security to kick your doors down. Now, the Democrats may have wanted to take your guns, but there was nobody to do it. Now, we’ve got 300,000 armed people that are not only capable of doing it but legally empowered to do so.
If they can shut down the Internet — and they certainly can — and they can tap any telephone, and they can arrest any person, I assure you, they can take your guns, or change any voting machine, put anyone in office when they want to, invade any country, bomb or kill, assassinate anyone anywhere — and when you say enough of those things — we’re all so used to hearing it — how many of these things have to come together before you wake up and say, “Wait a minute. I’m not living in a democracy anymore at all”? Why would they do it? The trillions of dollars stolen from the defense budget, that’s enough. Looting our economy. Burying America in debt. Making us subservient to China. The idea was to leave America a burning hulk and have the world ruled by Russia, China, and India — countries where Israel has preeminent control over the governments. Including China, if you want to read about this, recently, it has only started coming into the news now.
PB: Well, Gordon, thank you very much for joining us today. And I’d ask you to remove your Ray-Bans. I’ve got mine on. And we’re gonna have to neuralize ya. We’ll ride out on the Men In Black theme today as we ponder what Gordon Duff has told us. Gordon, thank you very much for being our guest today on the Peter B. Collins Show.
GD: Peter, it’s been a trip.
[TIME: 1:12:32]
(music to end).
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For an aside of “able” intrigue about Gordon Duff, check out my two successive comments with links here.
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